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Ardyn exhales, agreeing wholeheartedly with how dangerous it all sounds, forcing memories onto people, to only be followed through with dangerous weapons and abilities. A tug pulls at his features, but he turns his head to look at his ex-student properly when he mentions testing limits.

"If they're testing our limits, they're finding rather inane way of doing so." An arch of his brow. "I had to create an outfit made of scarves this month. I was part of a human pyramid. I did yoga in a fast food place. It all seems rather... childish to me."

Despite the seriousness of their conversation, Togusa snickers quickly before covering it up at the image of Ardyn in a full outfit of scarves. "I'm sorry I missed that," Togusa mutters.

"Which." He holds up a hand. "And that's why some of the other stuff snuck under the radar. Even with something so childish, they found lines I was unwilling to cross. Stealing someone else's property, clearly. Especially since nine times out of ten your choice is a weapon." He points with one finger. "I could have smacked Dante upside the head at any point this month for a free bingo square. Wasn't going to. That was too far. And I think Retrospec is trying to get us to move those lines."

"You could've just given him a light little tap on the cheek, and it would've counted," he's quick to correct, because that's exactly how Ardyn chose to approach the situation.

"So you think next month might be more serious than this one? And the month after? And the one after that? What are they trying to achieve by doing so?"

"Not worth the cost," Togusa counters. "Not coming from me. It's still doing harm to somebody else in order to get what you want out of Retrospec, even if just symbolically." And while he isn't harboring any grudges, despite his front row seat to what people were willing to do to others for this prize, it's something Togusa won't just let pass without comment.

"They want something out of us. That much has been clear all along. But we have yet to find out what it is. Use the app, keep talking to each other, all of it has been to drive us at each other in various ways." But Togusa shrugs helplessly. "No idea why."

He tilts his head at Togusa curiously. He understands the man's point, which basically boiled down to "it's the principle of the thing". And while he can certainly accept that, he can't help but explore this stance further.

"You did involve yourself in a couple of bingo activities yourself, didn't you? Such as our little outing to the beach."

This was why Togusa wanted to bring this up in front of Ardyn. If he is truly out of line on this, Ardyn would be the person who could deconstruct the argument. "Right. Because, the line isn't playing along with Retrospec. I probably wouldn't have bothered at all outside of helping other people, if that center square hadn't shown a code just like what we found in the subway."

"But it's whether you're willing to do something that drags somebody else down to get that reward."

"In the most general sense, I can agree with you there. But circumstances are not always as straightforward as we'd like for them to be."

He rubs at the stubble on his chin, trying to think of an example. Or at least, a set-up to one.

"Would you be willing to help others if it was a detriment to yourself? Even if it was only slight?"

Edited 2017-07-24 19:18 (UTC)

All right, Togusa actually smiles a little when he sees that this is going straight into a thought experiment.

"Of course," Togusa's answer is too immediate. "Despite the fact that I was the easy target for that 'prank an authority figure' square, I didn't really mind if it helped other people." With. One notable exception. But Togusa straight-faces the sentence. Nothing wrong at all.

If there's something else to be read in that straight-faced admission, Ardyn chooses to not latch onto it for now.

"In that case, wouldn't say that Dante was doing the same? He even had a stand set up, encouraging others to slap him. Granted, it was for ten dollars -- highway robbery, I know -- but the intent was there regardless."

A shrug of his shoulders.

"Skewed as it might be, he was offering to play victim for the sake of others. Just as you didn't mind being pranked for the same reasons. What makes it unacceptable to utilize this help, but inverse is fine?"

Ten bucks? ~~What a jerk.~~

"Pull out all the specifics, and sure, you're absolutely right. In theory it's totally balanced. Altruistic, even. But we can't lose track of who I am versus who Dante is. Drop the power dynamic back in there, and it all falls apart."

Togusa gestures to himself. "Even off the clock, I can't entirely shed my association with the city. Period. And everything I do gets filtered back through that lens. Gives me an authority I'm not okay with abusing." Although he is being self-critical, Togusa is quite enjoying this discussion.

~~Told you. Highway robbery.~~

"So it's a matter of your position in conjunction with the city?" the grin on his face betrays that Ardyn is quite enjoying this discussion as well. Togusa never fails to entertain him with them; sometimes he misses having him as student for this reason alone, even if that was years ago.

"What about when you brought us into the subway? Was that different?"

Sure, they volunteered, but the argument could also be made that as an authority figure, maybe taking two civilians down into the subway where they almost got eaten by spiders was an even greater misstep.

"Mmm," a sound of agreement while Togusa leans back a little, thinking. "That felt different, so why did it feel that way? Ah."

"More people benefit off of the subway," Togusa points at Ardyn. "I went down there with the intent to share whatever we found. Figured it was going to be something that would help out everyone stuck in this mess. A gamble that paid off." A pause. "I don't know if I'd still be saying that if one of us had actually managed to get hurt, I'll be frank on that one."

Circle back to the initial point. "Getting the specific squares in the bingo game seemed more self-serving. Doesn't benefit anyone else if I get more memories. Just me." Tilts his head to the side. "And maybe benefit at that."

"Fair enough," he concedes, having assumed that the idea of helping everyone -- by potentially unravelling a mystery -- might have played a part in the two instances feeling different than one or the other.

"I could dig my heels in a bit deeper... and say who knows that adding more memories to file away in your mind does not benefit us all in the end? We can't hope to know the scale of Retrospec, and what they intend for us."

He then waves a hand. "But that's an admittedly weak argument. If you want my honest opinion, I agree with you, Togusa. Though I was not so restrained to resist a few of the squares, whereas you refused to entertain them at all."

Togusa hesitates on Ardyn's point there. "In case there's something waiting for me like the ability you gained? A colleague of mine made a similar argument, it's why I was so happy to help him out if he was willing to play Retrospec's game. That, if we're going to be able to keep doing our jobs in the face of, well, people willing and able to cut people's hands off? We need to take the risk and see what might be waiting for us."

But he shakes his head. "I need to keep in mind where the lines are. No matter how I change. What little I've gotten has all been other people, other- okay, the robots. Never seen myself."

"Risk versus reward. The question of if the end justifies the means. I have a feeling this is something we'll be wrestling with for a while, though I wish I could say that's not the case."

A discussion that has no definitive answer. One that changes based on the perception of the individual. They could talk about this all day if they wanted, weaving circles around each other, but Ardyn's attention is pulled once more towards they mention of memories.

"Have you remembered anything new recently?"

These sorts of discussions are one of the things Togusa enjoys the most about spending time with Ardyn. Who needs an answer when just the argumentation is fun? Because he thinks those are truly the most valuable things he learned from Ardyn: how to argue, structuring an argument, following a logical path. It's why Ardyn slaps on extra papers to his favored students about every topic under the sun. While he might actually be curious about the differences between American and Japanese baseball, it's more about how you make your point that he wants to see.

Togusa pauses, and he had just let the last topic that he's seen slip. He takes out a long breath, looking past Ardyn like he's replaying it in his head. "I saw the Tachikoma, the robots, again. I was right about what I thought of them, they're simplistic, almost child-like in their intelligence. But I saw them getting taken away, whatever facility they were in? They were getting marched out, thought it was just for a retrofit, so they were all excited. Singing, even."

Togusa frowns. "But for some reason, I knew they were getting decommissioned. They weren't coming back. And I don't know why I feel bad about that."

"You feel bad about it because it sounds very... sad," he admits, soon after Togusa tells him.

"Child-like, you said. Singing as they marched towards being decommissioned. Even if sentience isn't quite the right word for them, it's hard not to apply aspects of humanity to inhuman things in a situation like that. I think I would've felt guilty as well."

A pause.

"Do you know why they were being decommissioned?"

Togusa's eyes narrow a little as he thinks about it, trying to hold on to this image in his head, and he slowly shakes his head. "It's not- clear. I know that we were using them, I can remember driving one."

"But they're just machines." The protest is weak. Almost automatic, as if it's something he knows he has to say. "Almost makes it worse, actually, doesn't it? If they could feel trust, they'd have it for us humans, wouldn't they? Or is it the Asimov thing, unable to disobey even if they knew what was coming?" Togusa might have been supplementing his reading list ever since the memory showed up.

"On the surface, it's dumb to feel bad, but you're right. Especially if they were, what, comrades in the field? Shouldn't matter if they're mechanical."

Ardyn nods in agreement.

"Human beings have had sentimental attachment to things that make far less sense," he admits. "Being alive isn't necessarily a requirement."

His mind immediately flickers to Fynn, and his baffling love for his car. He shakes his head at it, slow but noticeable.

"What was their main purpose? You said you drove one?"

"Tanks!" Togusa actually perks up a little bit at the thought. "They're tanks. Gatling guns, mini-grenade launchers, small arms fire, I have no idea why I'd ever need that much firepower, but they do!"

Togusa is starting to gesture with his fingers to indicate the movements of a bug. "And those legs, they can crawl up surfaces just like a spider. And they have grappling hooks to latch on and jet themselves up the side of a building." Togusa is laughing at himself a little. "It's so futuristic and fantastic I can barely conceive it, but they feel so real."

Ardyn looks equal parts intrigued and amused when Togusa perks up, talking about tanks and their bug-like qualities. He does his best to imagine it, watching his hands with interest as they gesticulate.

"They sound like a force to be reckoned with. Gatling guns and grenade launchers, you said; what on earth possibly requires that much force to be dealt with? It's as if their use should only be delegated to war."

Togusa's mouth forms a line, and he shrugs exaggeratedly. "No idea. Haven't seen what was on the other end of the tank. But, Earth might actually be the right word." Togusa points.

"Ta-chi-ko-ma," Togusa breaks down the syllables of the word, pointing on each one. "Not a real word, but when I think about it, what comes up is katakana. And the song they were singing, it was a Japanese nursery rhyme. What I'm remembering might just be as simple as 'what if I never left Japan?'"

"What if you never left Japan and such a technology was actually developed, I think you mean," he says, correcting but not without a sliver of whimsy in his words.

"What nursery rhyme were they singing? Out of curiosity."

"Akai Kutsu," Togusa explains. He thinks about it for a second, and the corner of his mouth quirks up again briefly, but it's unamused this time. "Someone even asked them if they realized what the song was about. And they didn't get it, they just saw a surface-level interpretation."

"Childlike."

"I don't know what the song is about," he offers in return, and if Togusa wants to explain he's more than welcome to. If anything, he's interested in the way the humor drains a little from the man when he mentions the nursery rhyme.

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CONTENT WARNING FOR HOLOCAUST REFERENCE, THANKS, ARDYN

HE DIDN'T KNOW but yes cw: holocaust references

Re: HE DIDN'T KNOW but yes cw: holocaust references

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